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Inline Viscosity Meter?

inline viscosity viscosity viscosity meter non-newtonian gel cp

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#1 Subject_Name_Here

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 08:22 AM

I'm looking for an inline viscosity meter for gels. This of course would be an apparent viscosity, but if measured as normal viscosity it will be OK regardless of the gel being non-newtownian (thus the definition of apparent viscosity). It cannot be kinematic, dynamic only. Brookfield only sells inline kinematic viscosity meters, which would only be useful if I then bought a density meter, which I do not want to do!

 

Endress+Hauser quoted me $25k for a coriolis meter that measures dynamic viscosity, but I'm told the results of the instrument are extremely dependent upon how it's calibrated at the factory and can only be used for the fluid it was calibrated for. I suppose such an idea would be acceptable if my budget was increased by a factor of 10.

 

Has anyone had success using any type of automated viscosity measurement at all?

 

If I'm unsuccessful with finding a meter, I was thinking of designing a slip stream off of the process that enters a large cylinder (maybe a few gallons in size) with a level indicator on it. The time it takes for the level to drop x% out of the cylinder and into a drain would then be correlated to the laboratory viscosity measurements.

 

Any ideas or suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks!



#2 breizh

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 06:19 PM

Probably someone like JMW could help .

 

Hope this helps

 

Breizh



#3 JMW

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 08:12 PM

Well, you can go down the route of using a proprietary viscometer.

 

In my experience, most process viscometers measure dynamic viscosity.

This includes capillary, rotational and vibrational types.

It is usually necessary to include density if you want kinematic viscosity. For example, using a process capillary viscosity analyser. This is because this uses the pressure drop at a constant flow rate to determine viscosity. In the lab a capillary viscometer measures kinematic viscosity because it is the time taken for the fluid to flow through the capillary under gravity.

 

Most vibrating element viscometers only measure dynamic viscosity, the exceptions are the Emerson 7827 and 7829 viscometers and the Lemis VDC 52 ViscoAnalytic. These also measure the density which enables them to convert the measured dynamic viscosity into kinematic.

 

Non-Newtonian fluids usually result in differences of opinion even between manufacturers.

The argument is that shear dependent behaviour requires a constant shear viscometer (e.g. rotational). However, while in the lab with a  fixed sample, the only shear on the fluid is that created by the rotating cylinder or bob, in the process there is the added shear due to flow. Now if we also have a viscous behaviour where work history has an effect then it gets even more problematic.

 

There are two types of viscosity measurement:

Behavioural where it is the viscosity at process conditions that is important,

Quality or Analytical where it is the viscosity at reference conditions that is needed.

 

Behavioural measurements are usually those where the product is sprayed, used for coating etc. In these cases it isn't so much the viscosity that is important but some other factor such as reject rates. For example, when lacquer coating headlights, where the lacquer is then UV cured, the viscosity (behaviour) is controlled by adding solvent. There are two objectives, the first is to ensure that the headlights receive the required coating thickness and secondly to minimise the amount of solvent used. In such applications no one actually needs the actual viscosity, just a repeatable value. That is, a value that can be correlated with satisfactory production of headlights.

 

Analytical measurements are where you want to use the measurement to control the quality of the fluid. In this case because viscosity varies with both quality and temperature (and shear rate for non-Newtonian fluids, and work history with some others such as automobile paints) it is important to control all the extraneous effects on viscosity - the temperature and shear rate, so that viscosity only varies with quality. An example is fuel oil blending. The blending can take place over a range of temperatures so the viscosity varies with both temperature and the ratio of distillate to residual fuels. So either one has to control the temperature to the reference temperature in the viscometer or apply a temperature correction.

 

These analytical or quality measurements are the most challenging, especially once away from hydrocarbons or Newtonian fluids. However, in these measurements precision of measurement is important and this usually is best achieved by using a slip stream installation with a constant flow rate pump and this then also regulates the shear. So it doesn't matter if it is a rotational viscometer or a vibrating element viscometer (which will have a fixed apparent shear rate which is fluid dependent). With non-Newtonian fluids you then need to correlate the process measurement with a laboratory measurement.

 

With a behavioural type measurement if the shear rate changes or the temperature changes or the quality changes, the viscosity will change. But since there is a target viscosity at which the behaviour of the fluid is optimal for spraying or coating, then it doesn't matter what causes the change, the viscometer is used to control a heater or solvent addition in order to bring the behaviour (apparent viscosity) back to the optimal value.

 

In the case of behavioural measurements or some process control applications, the history of viscosity measurement is such that the end users may innovate their own solutions. If all you want is a repeatable value then you look for something that will give you that. It may be a viscometer but it could be something else.

 

For example, a Variable area meter is one where the float rises or falls in the tapered tube according to the change in flow rate. But if you run at a constant flowrate, then the float will rise or fall according to the change in viscosity. So one approach might be to set up a small diameter slips stream with a small variable speed PD pump and a VA meter. Then adjust the pump speed so that at the optimum viscosity the float is mid range.

The float will rise if the viscosity increases or fall as it decreases. It is now a matter of correlating this with whatever it is that is of interest e.g. reject rate of the finished product. The advantage here is that you are controlling the shear rate to be repeatable by controlling the flow rat using the pump (he variable speed is to find the optimum flow rate. Then leave it alone.... or pick a pump and try different VA meters).

 

Viscosity is challenging to measure successfully but most of the difficulty is in controlling or compensating for process variations and being clear about what the objective of measuring viscosity is, analytical or behavioural, and whether it is the viscosity that is important or some consequence of viscosity change due to whatever cause.

 

If you would liek to give some more detail I would be happy to help further.



#4 Ming Hooi

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:36 PM

I have an old file that describes on the above, attached.

 

JMW, any experience with inline viscosity measurement for Urea-formaldehyde resin in the reactor ? I have talked to Brookfield, Emerson, Anton-Paar and Norcross. None of them have the experience in this field of application yet.

Attached Files



#5 JMW

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 06:15 AM

Hi, I hadn't realised the VA meter version had been written up anywhere. Thanks for the article.

 

I had a look online and found it helpful that they talk about viscosity measurement without amplifying: http://www.phxequip....esin-plant.aspx

But I did find the "Viscopower" http://www.viscopowe...nal viscometer.

 

I'm going to suggest for the Urea Formaldehyde that you might also talk to the plastics people.

When dealing with plastics there are a number of approaches specialists in this field take.

You could google PMI sensors and look for manufacturers to talk to. PMI is Polymer Melt Index. Most are simply versions of the dP across a capillary sensor but as with many viscometers the secret isn't in the sensor but in the knowledge that goes into the applications.

 

The closest I can personally get is with Methyl Methacryclate reactor control where the solution was the Solartron (now Emerson) 7827. (http://www.hydrocarb...ment-Raise-0001 when it was still Solartron). This was a batch reactor application.

(There was another which was continuous pipeline reaction control).

 

This was a good application and one that most "purists" would say to walk away from non-newtonian etc etc.

As it happens every so often they'd mess up the tank cleaning and a layer of methyl methacrylate would set solid around the sensor. They'd free the flange bolts, hook it up to a fork lift and drag it out. Sometimes in a couple of pieces and just buy another viscometer. In the end the design was modified to make it easier to recover the viscometer in such cases.

 

Note the reference in the article to the use of the ASTM D341 equation based solutions.

This reaction starts cold and requires heating. Once it is established it then goes exothermic.

The operator needs to establish an end point at which to quench the reaction.

They were using a cut off detergent bottle as a crude cup viscometer and would try and plot a reaction curve to predict the time at which to quench. Basically the viscosity at the reference temperature correlates with the mean molecular weight. Hence the need for some form of temperature correction.

 

So if there are sufficient similarities with your reaction, this is the approach to consider.

 

Niche applications will frequently not come with a happy sales rep saying "We've done this before, no sweat." It means ultimately taking an informed risk. If there is no other way to do it, try it and see.

I visited Grangemouth refinery once to look at a quench oil control application where they installed the 7827. I remember arriving there to find a collection of different viscometers lying around in the grass beneath the vessel. All tried and failed. Some after only a few hours as the clogged up with sediment. (Good application that, the viscosity increased with temperature due to the higher temperature quench oil taking more light fraction out and the residue getting thicker).

Quite a number of successful applications are where there is no way the fluid is Newtonian, not even at operating conditions.



#6 JMW

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 06:18 AM

PS I guess I ought to suggest talking to Krohne about their Viscoline



#7 Ming Hooi

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 04:12 AM

Hi JMW,

 

Just sharing,

 

About Emerson's 7827, indeed we had in more than one year studied this with Emerson and have been shown the results of its application on an MMA plant. But the project was finally put on hold when we stumbled upon the difficulty to install it in our system, whereby :

  1. From top of reactor vessel:
    1. the long stem will be obstructed by the middle agitator blades.
  2. Side of reactor vessel:
    1. the sensor will have to extend through the gap between cooling coils;
    2. how to reduce the linear velocity at the meter. As mentioned before, the agitator runs at 70rpm.
  3. Flow Through Chamber installation:
    1. Product build up will be expected in the circulation line
    2. As the viscosity rises from 10cPs to finally a few thousands cPs, the linear velocity flowing through the meter will change accordingly. With a constant circulation pump rate, how do we size the system to maintain the 0.3-0.5m/s velocity range across the viscosity range ?

noting that the 7827 requires a flow velocity between 0.3 - 0.5 m/s within the boundary that affects the fork vibration.

 

Some time ago, I have heard of Anton-Paar working together with Dynea (a major player in formaldehyde resin) to develop a suitable inline viscometer for such application. This was at least 3 years ago but until now Anton Paar in Indonesia (where I am) has not updated if the result was good.

 

Anyway, I HAVE NOT given up on this and will talk to more industrial people when I visit Toronto in October.



#8 JMW

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Posted 09 September 2013 - 11:18 AM

Ah, what Emerson should tell you is that for any bypass system with an inline viscometer, and especially as the fluid is non-Newtonian, a constant flowrate is essential and therefore you should install with a PD pump rated to deliver the target flowrate at the highest viscosity to be expected.

That way the changing viscosity will not affect flow.

Oh, and remember to use high efficiency insulation (Calcium silicate is good).

 

I had the experience where an operator using the 7827 for bitumen tried to operate the bypass using pressure differential only. When the viscosity rose the flow through the viscometer by-pass stopped, it cooled and set solid. They then steam heated it to thaw the bitumen, purge the system and get back in operation. They then installed a PD pump and had no problems afterwards.

 

Non-Newtonian fluids and high viscosities are not usually a problem for the 7827 when properly installed and managed.



#9 JFPilot

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Posted 16 January 2014 - 01:27 PM

Krohne's Viscoline is ideal for this non-newtonian application. There are no moving parts and the viscosity is measured at a given shear rate. For more details : http://us.krohne.com...ment/viscoline/

For complexe non-newtonian fluids there is nothing like the Viscoline.  






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