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#1 pikku-eetu

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Posted 04 September 2008 - 04:13 PM

Dear Sir,

I'm taking part of on going power plant project in Africa. We do have two 3000 m3 light fuel oil tanks on the tank yard that to be protected. They are inside of the dike wall an they are far from other flammable objects. We have big problems to determinate what is the right way to protect them against the fire. We should execute the fire protection according NFPA-codes but the local fire protection specialist do not make me feel safe so I'm confused what is the right way to protect the tanks. I did not find any simply explanation from the codes how to do the fire protection.

I appreciate all help and hints what You can give me.

Thanks advance

Esa Ehoniemi
esa.ehoniemi at gmail.com

#2 ankur2061

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 10:50 AM

Esa,

Do the subject tanks have provision for emergency venting due to fire. This is one of the fundamental protection you can provide for a fire case scenario to prevent catastrophic failure due to fire. Refer API 2000 for design of emergency vent for fire case. The emergency vent is in addition to the normal vent for inbreathing/outbreathing due to movement of liquid out/in from the tank.

If you require further assistance in emergency vent calculations I surely can provide some further guidelines.

First, I suggest you get yourself a copy of API 2000 to understand the concept of emergency venting due to fire.

Regards,
Ankur.

#3 pikku-eetu

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Posted 05 September 2008 - 12:19 PM

Dear Ankur,

Basic design of the tanks are all right (according API-650), but problem is fire fighting (foam spray system). We set aswell flame arrestor on vent pipe, so it's all right.

Real problem is to determinate size of the foam spray system and parts of it. We do have 4" foam spray nozzle on the top of the shell that we can spray a foam inside of the tank on the fuel and block out possible to have a fire inside of the tank. I have no experience of design of foam systems and local guys are totally lost, so I have to find some sense to this situation. We will not add any unneccesary equipments to our system but we have to fulfill the NFPA-code and aswell do a safe fire fighting system.

Fire pumps are allready ordered, so that's not problem but the foam system, that is pain in my ass.

So if somebody have some hints how to design the system I really apreaciate You help.

Thanks,

Esa

#4 ankur2061

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 07:35 AM

Esa,

Do not give pains to any of your body parts. Consult a fire fighting specialist or a company which provided foam fire fighting systems. Give them the relevant details such as tank size, stored liquid properties, diked area dimensions and ask them to provide you a technical quote with a ball park budgetary price. Most vendors will do this in anticipation of estblishing business relations and a probable order. This being a specialist area, it is best left to the specialist.

You can google to find out companies providing fire fighting technologies and equipment or have a look in your local yellow pages for such information.

Regards,
Ankur.

#5 Qalander (Chem)

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 04:31 AM


Dear sendovash Hello/Good Afternoon,

You should get clear guidance from NFPA 11 indeed.

However, certain factors w.r.t. High Expansion, Medium Expansion and Low Expansion foams selection/ application and foam type(s) for possible fire types and burn-back resistance needs related issues etc. these do require some seasoned 'Fire' professionals inputs/consultation as well.

Additionally, You may reuire to decide organizational policy basis for extra quantity's inventory carry(if any) as per 'lead time' and your 'largest hazard scenario(s)' addressing contingencies.

Hope this helps
Qalander

#6 ankur2061

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 09:01 AM

Dear,

I refuse to spoon feed you like a child.

First go though API 2000, study the emergency venting section due to fire, understand what is meant by emergency venting, try doing your own calculations and then come back with specific questions related to the calculations you have performed.

I will be more than happy to help you if you try to help yourself. Your expectation of me doing your calculation on your behalf is totally unjustified.

If you are an operations engineer with almost no knowledge of how to do engineering calculations than I suggest you take help from a design engineering consultant which any consultant will do for an appropriate engineering fee. Of course you will have to provide him all the inputs he requires for providing you sizing calculations for a blow-off type emergency manway vent.

Regards,
Ankur.


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Posted 09 November 2008 - 04:05 PM

Hi Esa,

NFPA 11 has guideline of type of foam and foam system, foam application rate, nos. of foam outlet required on the top of tank.

Check the website "http://www.williamsfire.com/products/tankprotection.html" for some calculated examples.

In addition to the foam system, you will need fire hydrants outside of the dike. I have seen water deluge system on the tank in addition to the foam system.

I suggest that you to follow the NFPA 11, refer some of the fire system vendor's website, talk to the vendor for your specific requirement. I think you will get all answers you need.

Suren

QUOTE (pikku-eetu @ Sep 4 2008, 04:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Dear Sir,

I'm taking part of on going power plant project in Africa. We do have two 3000 m3 light fuel oil tanks on the tank yard that to be protected. They are inside of the dike wall an they are far from other flammable objects. We have big problems to determinate what is the right way to protect them against the fire. We should execute the fire protection according NFPA-codes but the local fire protection specialist do not make me feel safe so I'm confused what is the right way to protect the tanks. I did not find any simply explanation from the codes how to do the fire protection.

I appreciate all help and hints what You can give me.

Thanks advance

Esa Ehoniemi
esa.ehoniemi at gmail.com

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#8

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 12:36 AM

I'm looking to where the code says you need fire protection. I have made a recommendation in a risk survey report which says the client should have a foam system on his diesel fuel oil storage tank.
Common sense does not prevail and he wants to know which code recommends the fire protection.
I have done some searching but cannot find a code with such a statement.

#9 Qalander (Chem)

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 04:44 AM

QUOTE (Rob Stott @ Jan 6 2009, 10:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm looking to where the code says you need fire protection. I have made a recommendation in a risk survey report which says the client should have a foam system on his diesel fuel oil storage tank.
Common sense does not prevail and he wants to know which code recommends the fire protection.
I have done some searching but cannot find a code with such a statement.


NFPA 30 should be helpful for Fire protection needs in parallal to NFPA11;Study these you should find satisfactory reply to the client's query.
Regards
Qalander


#10 astro

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 06:06 PM

I don't have intimate knowledge of the NFPA standards referred to but from a generic design perspective and looking at this from a different angle, a risk based approach would provide good guidance.

This is especially useful when addressing the question of how much fire protection is required? Well, to be honest, it depends. I've dealt with remote, onshore oil & gas facilities storing 10s of thousands of barrels of live crude that didn't have anything more than large capacity dry chemical powder fire extinguishers on trolleys as well as fusible loops for ESD.

The philosophy in that case was to fight incipient fires during day shift. The facilities were unmanned at night, so during that time period or if the fire could not quickly be brought under control the philosophy was to isolate, evacuate and let it burn down.

Presumably a financial loss assessment was part of the formulation of the philosophy justifying this approach. If the risk (in terms of consequence and likelihood) of a fire will not significantly impact life, the environment or the corporate bank balance (or public image / reputation) then a burn down philosophy has validity.

From a practical stand point, if significant emergency response is a long time away then it is somewhat pointless installing grandiose facilities that will in reality not provide much benefit.

I've seen other facilities apply a quantitative risk assessment approach to determine whether automated deluge facilities are warranted and where they should be applied. In this situation, the time for emergency response by dedicated fire fighting services was taken into account.

If the local authority forces you to apply a prescriptive approach that doesn't account for the risks at a practical level, then in one sense your life is easy. Unfortunately, this can drive you toward an over-engineered design. If the facility has a significant worth, then finding a risk engineer versed in fire fighting standards and loss assessments would probably offer you good results and a focused design.

#11 Qalander (Chem)

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 10:08 AM

QUOTE (Qalander (Chem) @ Jan 6 2009, 02:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Rob Stott @ Jan 6 2009, 10:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm looking to where the code says you need fire protection. I have made a recommendation in a risk survey report which says the client should have a foam system on his diesel fuel oil storage tank.
Common sense does not prevail and he wants to know which code recommends the fire protection.
I have done some searching but cannot find a code with such a statement.


NFPA 30 should be helpful for Fire protection needs in parallal to NFPA11;Study these you should find satisfactory reply to the client's query.
Regards
Qalander


Dear all
Refer to attached pdf it is quite useful
Regards
Qalander

#12 JoeWong

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 11:56 AM

I am afraid this is a copyrighted doc... sad.gif

#13 Qalander (Chem)

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Posted 07 January 2009 - 12:01 PM

QUOTE (JoeWong @ Jan 7 2009, 09:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I am afraid this is a copyrighted doc... sad.gif


Thanks JoeWong,I apologise if this is so;
this was in my old inventory from an open source download
I 'll remove it now.
Regards
Qalander

#14 OmarFarouk

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 02:17 PM

First of all to select the most appropriate fire fighting system for fixed roof tanks you should know the flash point of the liquid inside the tank, if the liquid is heavy (for example Diesel fuel) then there will be no need to add fixed sub-surface foam injection system.
Normally use fire water spray system to cover tank roof and shell (shell up to 3.7 meter from the ground is enough). if the dike area is designed properly (normally shall include 1.5 of the full tank capacity) and the spacing between tanks are enough you will not need to operate water spray system at two tanks at the same time (better to check that using a radiation modelling software-use PHAST for example- and if the tank is objected to more than 32 KW/m2 then u have to open the water spray system on it as well).
For dike protection NFPA recommends not to use fixed foam system and to use portable foam monitors and mobile foam units to move freely from area to another.

Use pneumatic detection system or rate of compensation heat detectors to activate the water spray system

As a general role, NFPA and API will not tell you what to use and what not to use, it will only gives you a general recommendation and guidelines to design your system.

Regards

Omar


#15 Qalander (Chem)

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Posted 08 January 2009 - 11:49 PM

QUOTE (OmarFarouk @ Jan 9 2009, 12:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
First of all to select the most appropriate fire fighting system for fixed roof tanks you should know the flash point of the liquid inside the tank, if the liquid is heavy (for example Diesel fuel) then there will be no need to add fixed sub-surface foam injection system.
Normally use fire water spray system to cover tank roof and shell (shell up to 3.7 meter from the ground is enough). if the dike area is designed properly (normally shall include 1.5 of the full tank capacity) and the spacing between tanks are enough you will not need to operate water spray system at two tanks at the same time (better to check that using a radiation modelling software-use PHAST for example- and if the tank is objected to more than 32 KW/m2 then u have to open the water spray system on it as well).
For dike protection NFPA recommends not to use fixed foam system and to use portable foam monitors and mobile foam units to move freely from area to another.

Use pneumatic detection system or rate of compensation heat detectors to activate the water spray system

As a general role, NFPA and API will not tell you what to use and what not to use, it will only gives you a general recommendation and guidelines to design your system.

Regards

Omar


My Dear OmarFarouk Hello,

I fear that your above explaination in this forum is not accurate; as if your conception is somewat waivered
in understanding the true spirit of various nfpa/api etc. codes and the diking needs,

foam deployment needs on dikes and seem to mix the subsuface foam use in the tanks
with the on surface foam pouring/blanketting mandatorily needed for almost all tanks(wether floating/ fixed roof type) to suppress fires usually on the surface.

the only exception/debatable point among Fire Protection professionals has been the foam provision 100~higher degrees celsius petroleum storage tanks(i.e. to check&/or eliminate Boil over possibilities)

As such it is humbly suggested abstain advising or advice correctly and accurately;
since this can endanger users to even higher risk conditions
Best regards
Qalander

#16 asade abiodun

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 04:16 AM

i suggest that API 2000 should be consulted and fully understand for the tank vent relief design.

i recalled that this is what we used in our design for a diesel storage tank project we completed a while ago.

#17 OmarFarouk

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 10:12 AM

QUOTE (Qalander (Chem) @ Jan 9 2009, 12:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (OmarFarouk @ Jan 9 2009, 12:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
First of all to select the most appropriate fire fighting system for fixed roof tanks you should know the flash point of the liquid inside the tank, if the liquid is heavy (for example Diesel fuel) then there will be no need to add fixed sub-surface foam injection system.
Normally use fire water spray system to cover tank roof and shell (shell up to 3.7 meter from the ground is enough). if the dike area is designed properly (normally shall include 1.5 of the full tank capacity) and the spacing between tanks are enough you will not need to operate water spray system at two tanks at the same time (better to check that using a radiation modelling software-use PHAST for example- and if the tank is objected to more than 32 KW/m2 then u have to open the water spray system on it as well).
For dike protection NFPA recommends not to use fixed foam system and to use portable foam monitors and mobile foam units to move freely from area to another.

Use pneumatic detection system or rate of compensation heat detectors to activate the water spray system

As a general role, NFPA and API will not tell you what to use and what not to use, it will only gives you a general recommendation and guidelines to design your system.

Regards

Omar


My Dear OmarFarouk Hello,

I fear that your above explaination in this forum is not accurate; as if your conception is somewat waivered
in understanding the true spirit of various nfpa/api etc. codes and the diking needs,

foam deployment needs on dikes and seem to mix the subsuface foam use in the tanks
with the on surface foam pouring/blanketting mandatorily needed for almost all tanks(wether floating/ fixed roof type) to suppress fires usually on the surface.

the only exception/debatable point among Fire Protection professionals has been the foam provision 100~higher degrees celsius petroleum storage tanks(i.e. to check&/or eliminate Boil over possibilities)

As such it is humbly suggested abstain advising or advice correctly and accurately;
since this can endanger users to even higher risk conditions
Best regards
Qalander


Dear Qalander,

First of all i know exactly what is the mean of onsurface, subsurface and dike foam systems (by the way u don't use foam to protect the liquid surface in floating roof tanks u only cover the rim seal in the roof) i wanted only to explain the main points in choosing a fire fighting system for tanks handling with flammable liquids.....

as my "advising" may "endanger" users then i deeply apologize for my "advice" and will stop replying for further inquiries.

by the way i am a fire protection engineering specialist.

Regards,

Omar

#18 Qalander (Chem)

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 10:27 PM

QUOTE (OmarFarouk @ Jan 9 2009, 08:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Qalander (Chem) @ Jan 9 2009, 12:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (OmarFarouk @ Jan 9 2009, 12:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
First of all to select the most appropriate fire fighting system for fixed roof tanks you should know the flash point of the liquid inside the tank, if the liquid is heavy (for example Diesel fuel) then there will be no need to add fixed sub-surface foam injection system.
Normally use fire water spray system to cover tank roof and shell (shell up to 3.7 meter from the ground is enough). if the dike area is designed properly (normally shall include 1.5 of the full tank capacity) and the spacing between tanks are enough you will not need to operate water spray system at two tanks at the same time (better to check that using a radiation modelling software-use PHAST for example- and if the tank is objected to more than 32 KW/m2 then u have to open the water spray system on it as well).
For dike protection NFPA recommends not to use fixed foam system and to use portable foam monitors and mobile foam units to move freely from area to another.

Use pneumatic detection system or rate of compensation heat detectors to activate the water spray system

As a general role, NFPA and API will not tell you what to use and what not to use, it will only gives you a general recommendation and guidelines to design your system.

Regards

Omar


My Dear OmarFarouk Hello,

I fear that your above explaination in this forum is not accurate; as if your conception is somewat waivered
in understanding the true spirit of various nfpa/api etc. codes and the diking needs,

foam deployment needs on dikes and seem to mix the subsuface foam use in the tanks
with the on surface foam pouring/blanketting mandatorily needed for almost all tanks(wether floating/ fixed roof type) to suppress fires usually on the surface.

the only exception/debatable point among Fire Protection professionals has been the foam provision 100~higher degrees celsius petroleum storage tanks(i.e. to check&/or eliminate Boil over possibilities)

As such it is humbly suggested abstain advising or advice correctly and accurately;
since this can endanger users to even higher risk conditions
Best regards
Qalander


Dear Qalander,

First of all i know exactly what is the mean of onsurface, subsurface and dike foam systems (by the way u don't use foam to protect the liquid surface in floating roof tanks u only cover the rim seal in the roof) i wanted only to explain the main points in choosing a fire fighting system for tanks handling with flammable liquids.....

as my "advising" may "endanger" users then i deeply apologize for my "advice" and will stop replying for further inquiries.

by the way i am a fire protection engineering specialist.

Regards,

Omar


Sorry Omar,
If you are hurt in any way;Kindly accept my apology.

The intention was that the OP should take appropriate/accurate route.

It was not at all meant/implied in any way that you should stop posting.

As regards the Floating Roof (It is always the Rim seal area that is most suceptable to fires and historically fire occurred and thus protected surface)

Best regards
qalander
Best regards

#19 OmarFarouk

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 06:58 AM

QUOTE (Qalander (Chem) @ Jan 9 2009, 10:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (OmarFarouk @ Jan 9 2009, 08:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (Qalander (Chem) @ Jan 9 2009, 12:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (OmarFarouk @ Jan 9 2009, 12:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
First of all to select the most appropriate fire fighting system for fixed roof tanks you should know the flash point of the liquid inside the tank, if the liquid is heavy (for example Diesel fuel) then there will be no need to add fixed sub-surface foam injection system.
Normally use fire water spray system to cover tank roof and shell (shell up to 3.7 meter from the ground is enough). if the dike area is designed properly (normally shall include 1.5 of the full tank capacity) and the spacing between tanks are enough you will not need to operate water spray system at two tanks at the same time (better to check that using a radiation modelling software-use PHAST for example- and if the tank is objected to more than 32 KW/m2 then u have to open the water spray system on it as well).
For dike protection NFPA recommends not to use fixed foam system and to use portable foam monitors and mobile foam units to move freely from area to another.

Use pneumatic detection system or rate of compensation heat detectors to activate the water spray system

As a general role, NFPA and API will not tell you what to use and what not to use, it will only gives you a general recommendation and guidelines to design your system.

Regards

Omar


My Dear OmarFarouk Hello,

I fear that your above explaination in this forum is not accurate; as if your conception is somewat waivered
in understanding the true spirit of various nfpa/api etc. codes and the diking needs,

foam deployment needs on dikes and seem to mix the subsuface foam use in the tanks
with the on surface foam pouring/blanketting mandatorily needed for almost all tanks(wether floating/ fixed roof type) to suppress fires usually on the surface.

the only exception/debatable point among Fire Protection professionals has been the foam provision 100~higher degrees celsius petroleum storage tanks(i.e. to check&/or eliminate Boil over possibilities)

As such it is humbly suggested abstain advising or advice correctly and accurately;
since this can endanger users to even higher risk conditions
Best regards
Qalander


Dear Qalander,

First of all i know exactly what is the mean of onsurface, subsurface and dike foam systems (by the way u don't use foam to protect the liquid surface in floating roof tanks u only cover the rim seal in the roof) i wanted only to explain the main points in choosing a fire fighting system for tanks handling with flammable liquids.....

as my "advising" may "endanger" users then i deeply apologize for my "advice" and will stop replying for further inquiries.

by the way i am a fire protection engineering specialist.

Regards,

Omar


Sorry Omar,
If you are hurt in any way;Kindly accept my apology.

The intention was that the OP should take appropriate/accurate route.

It was not at all meant/implied in any way that you should stop posting.

As regards the Floating Roof (It is always the Rim seal area that is most suceptable to fires and historically fire occurred and thus protected surface)

Best regards
qalander
Best regards


It's ok nothing happened smile.gif

regards
Omar




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