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Please Help Me...(about Oleochemicals)
#1
Posted 21 August 2007 - 10:37 AM
Actually i'm the new members in this forum. I have a problem that i need to solve. My problems is related to the oleochemicals field. I have a pitch(waste from fractional distillation column)which consist of 0.17% Lauric acids, 0.614% myristic acids,31.81% palmitic acids,4.63% stearic acids, 38.17% oleic acids and 7.81% linoleic acids(all percentage is in mass fraction). My problems here is i want to separate the oleic acids in pitch as high as possible.But what make me become headache is what is the suitable method of separation that i need to use to produce highest percentage of my product(oleic acids). I tried to use distillation method but it's failed because the ratio of relative volatility of oleic acid to the linoleic acids is below than 1.So, the separation using distillation method is impossible to happen(I think).So, anyone out there, please help me to solve my problems with gives your opinion. Ur opinion is very usefull for me and i really2 appreciate it.
#2
Posted 23 August 2007 - 10:03 AM
I'd like to help you but I miss some information. You only tell your pitch composition. You should be more specific. You said you'd tried distilation method for your separation problem but again you dont tell how you know that distilation can't perform the separation. Did you calculate the distilation by hand (manually) or with a process simulation program? So please tell me your pitch condition (temperature and pressure). I will try the separation using distilation with HYSYS. I want to prove it by myself it is ok or not. I will let you know the result. I am waiting for your info soon.
#3
Posted 24 August 2007 - 03:32 AM
A thousand thank you to you because of your willingness to help me.I think i can't use the distillation method because what i know,one rules that we need to know before using this method is about the relative volatility (please guide me if i'm wrong). So, when i calculated the relative volatility between the oleic acids and linoleic acids,what i get is the ratio between it at temperature 200-900 degree celcius (1 atm) is below than 1. Actually, to use this distillation method the relative volatility(vapour pressure light key/vapour pressure heavy key) must be above 1. So, i think it's can't be distillation method and may be another separation method. But i'm not pretty sure about that . Ok, here is the pressure and temperature of the pitch(12 mbar,278 degree celcius,flow rate is between 30-500kg/h). Again, thank you very much kaisar. I very appreciate for your help. Please inform me any information that you need.
#4
Posted 24 August 2007 - 10:11 AM
I am little confuse about the unit of your pressure, mbar. what m stands for? I cant find the pressure unit like that. Is it m for "milli" or "mega" or something else. If it is milli, isn't to small having pressure 12 millibar or if it is mega, isn't it to big having pressure 12 megabar. So I am waiting for your confirmation soon.
#5
Posted 25 August 2007 - 09:07 AM
Sorry confusing you about that kaisar.'m' is stand for mili in pressure.It's mean mili bar.Thank you very much.Please inform me if you have another things that you think it's confusing you or if you have not understand obviously about my information.Thanks again.I'll be waiting for your reply.
#6
Posted 28 August 2007 - 05:32 AM
I ask you again
1st, If 12 mbar means 12 milibar, can ve convert it to 0.12 bar?? I am not sure. Mili is for lenght unit.
2nd, How can you get your low pressure, with an ejector??
#7
Posted 28 August 2007 - 09:10 AM
I thought this was basic stuff, especially for chemical engineering students...
Please study the following link: http://en.wikipedia....i/Metric_prefix
So prefix m stands for milli meaning that you have to multiply by 0.001. So 12 mbar means 12 millibar which equals 0.012 bar.
Prefix M stands for mega meaning that you have to multiply by 1,000,000. So 12 Mbar means 12 megabar which equals 12,000,000 bar.
... and milli is not just for length unit!!!
#8
Posted 28 August 2007 - 11:14 AM
#9
Posted 28 August 2007 - 01:05 PM
2) If I have a pressure of 500 millibarg this is not a vacuum. So the statement that millibar is "always associated with vacuum because the pressure is very low" is not true.
#10
Posted 30 August 2007 - 03:31 AM
milli is not only for length unit.What gvdlans said is true.Mili means we times it with 0.001. This means that 12mBar is 0.012bar. This is actually a vacuum pressure.Actually this is a plant's problem.Before the pitch is produced, the fatty acids is fractional distillate first to extract the other fatty acids composition using vacuum distillation. All the light key will separate using this vacuum distillation.But, when we face with the heaviest component, i found that maybe it's have a problem when we want to using distillation method because of it's relative volatility is below 1. From the fractional distillate plant, when all the lighter key were separated, the remains is heavy key.On the last distillation column that separate light key is 12mBar.So, the pitch(heaviest component in fatty acids) that produce in the last distillation column is 12mBar.Thanks Kaisar for your help.I'll wait for your reply soon.
#11
Posted 30 August 2007 - 03:35 AM
Can you help me to solve my problems?I really2 need help from you too. I'll very appreciate because of your willing to help kaisar and I in this forum.Plz help me.
#12
Posted 30 August 2007 - 03:39 AM
Can you help me in solving my problems.I really2 need anybody help here. We can discuss all together in this forum.
#13
Posted 30 August 2007 - 10:30 AM
Sorry again
#14
Posted 01 September 2007 - 12:45 PM
Have you tried your HYSIS with my fatty acids composition?i'm very curious to know the result from you. I'll wait for your result soon. Feel free to ask any question or information that you need from me.
Thanks Kaisar
#15
Posted 04 September 2007 - 08:17 AM
Sorry for being disappear for a long time
I 'd tried your distillaton problem with HYSYS
First I wanna tell you that your pitch composition is not 100 %
It's only 83.204 %. Minus 16.796 % to be 100.
A big difference I think. Check it out.
So HYSYS normalize it as you can see in the file mass&energybalancs.jpg (see stream no. 1)
Second, I used 100 kg of your pitch as a basis.
Third, I made no pressure drop occured so the reboiler and condenser pressure is just the same as the feed's.
Fourth, I made palmitic acid as the ligth key and the oleic acid as the heavy key. HYSYS agreed with that. No warning messages appeared.
Fifth I made the product of the distillate (stream number 2) in liquid phase.
Sixth, I made as parameter LK in bottom is 0.001 mol fraction as well as HK in distillate
The Conclusion is HYSYS didn't have problem in simulating your pitch distillation problem.
It only need 23 trays to get 75 % weigth of oleic acid (stream no. 3)
I hope it helps you.
Sorry for all for being misunderstand about the unit of mbar. Thanks for the info.
Sincerely
Kaisar
Attached Files
#16
Posted 08 September 2007 - 09:54 AM
Thanks a lot for your help.I very appreciate it. Actually i want to try out about HYSIS program like you had done in my pitch. The composition of fatty acid that i have stated before is not 100%. Other 16.796% actually is the lightest key which consist of lauric, capric, capylic, myristic acids. I don't stated it before because the relative volatility of all that lightest key is above 1. So, i consider we can use distillation method. But, when we face to the heavier fatty acids components, we can see it's relative volatility is below 1. So, i confuse either we can use distillation or not.Now you had prove it to me that we can use distillation column.
Thank you very much kaisar. I really2 appreciate it. Now, i want learn to simulate it again. If you willing, can i ask you again after this on how to simulate it? Because i am the new one in HYSIS.
#17
Posted 10 September 2007 - 04:17 AM
Kaisar, thank you very much for your willing to help me. You're great. I already ask many people, many lecturers about the same question, but they said they can't help me. But, when i ask you, you can solve my question successfully. Thanks a lot kaisar. I'm very attracted to know and learn from you on how you do that simulation. I already had test with my HYSIS and put everything data that you stated with your reply message, but unfortunately, my simulation can't converge it.What type of thermodynamic package that you use in simulating my pitch before? If i'm lucky one, i hope you can send me a HYSIS file that you had done about my pitch before. I really2 hope it. I 'm very2 want to know how to solve my problems. I really need it. I hope you can help me once again.I very appreciate if you can give me that file. Million of thanks to you kaisar.
#18
Posted 10 September 2007 - 08:52 PM
I love helping people as long as I can. In simulating a chemical process, we must supply a complete and correct data to get trusted result. Here, I give you the HYSYS file of your pitch column simulation. I should give you this in the first place, but I thought you didn't have the Program. I made a change in the composition unit. Previusly, It was in mole fraction, which is should be in mass frac as you told before. But, never mind, your column is still converged with a little different results (you can chech by yourself). Now, you can modify this HYSYS file as you like. Happy trying!!!
Attached Files
#19
Posted 11 September 2007 - 03:43 AM
Thanks a lot kaisar for you help and willing to give me this file. I'm very curious to try it myself. I hope i can learn from this example that you had given to me.I hope i can ask you if i don't understand or confius in this pretty HYSIS. Can i? Because i know you're busy know. You already graduated in this year right? I had found about your resume in this forum before:) . I hope you will get your dream job. Thanks very much kaisar. Goodluck...
#20
Posted 18 September 2007 - 10:18 AM
Hi, how are you? Long time did not hear a news from you.Kaisar, can i ask you something.I had a little bit problems when doing my HYSYS about my pitch vacuum distillation. I had look at your example but i confius about the external reflux ratio that you put in that vacuum distillation. Can i know how do you get that reflux ratio?(you state that the reflux ratio in your example is 2.3). Another question that i want to ask you is, why in your HYSYS's example, the stages of the distillation column are auto calculated? This confusing me because, in my HYSYS program, we need to insert the number of stages on our distillation column as our input. How do you do that kaisar? Can you explain it to me. I really2 want to know and learn it from you. Thanks a lot Kaisar. Hope you willing to help me again.
#21
Posted 21 September 2007 - 01:22 AM
#22
Posted 22 September 2007 - 03:24 AM
Thanks a lot because of your obvious explaination. Sorry if i disturbing you, but i'm very interested in this simulation. I think i want to get it and learn this simulation as much as i can. Thank you very much Kaisar. I'll try it after this. I really2 need a person that are good enough in this simulation to help me. I hope you are willing to help me in my study of this simulation software. Thank you very2 much Kaisar.
#23
Posted 12 October 2007 - 08:39 PM
Hi kaisar, how are you? Kaisar, i have a little bit problems with HYSYS. What does it mean by BIP( Base integrity parameter- I'm not too sure about what is BIP stand for.please guide me if i'm wrong ). Can you help me explain about it if you know about it? or you have other sources that you recommended me to find about it?
#24
Posted 27 October 2007 - 03:44 AM
Sorry I can reply your mail now. I didn't log in this forum for a quite long time. Answering your question, BIP does not stand for "Base Integrity Parameter". Where did you get that accronym? It stands for "Binary Interactive Parameter". It is a value that represents an interaction between two components in a mixture. Actually it must be taken from a laboratory experiment but it can be predicted. I can't tell you how to do that here. Many references will tell you about this. Find it yourself. Use search engine like GOOGLE, type keyword like "Binary Interactive Parameter Prediction". HYSYS and many other simulation programs use BIP to calculate Enthalpy, VLE, etc. Actually you don't need to worry about BIP because HYSYS and other programs have predicted the BIP once you have choosen a property package. You may change the values, but it is reccomended you don't if you are not sure about it. Just believe HYSYS prediction. What you need to know now is how to choose a property package. Again, use a search engine to find out about it. OK, apis, I think my exlanation helps you.
#25
Posted 28 October 2007 - 08:08 AM
Thak you very much kaisar about your explaination. Actually, i get the BIP is stand for Base Integrity Paramater is from the help topic in HYSYS software. I don't know what does it mean actually. But its okay now. I will find the information about what had you said in internet after this. Thanks a lot kaisar for your help.
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