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Hi,
Can someone help me on designing a condenser. My aim is to condense acetone vapour at 56.13C (Vapour fraction=1) to 56.08C (vapour fraction=0) by using water at 25C. The process fluid will flow through the shell side while water will flow in the tube side. I know that q =mCpT and so the outlet temperature of water can be found by Tout = Tcin + q/mCp. However, after calculating, the outlet temperature is the same as my inlet. If there something wrong with the calculation? Because it involved a phase change.
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Condenser Design
Started by Ben, Jun 19 2006 07:31 AM
13 replies to this topic
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#2
aliadnan
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Posted 19 June 2006 - 10:12 AM
Ben
When your dealing with phase change, then Latent Heat comes into play. Since your condensing the Fluid so amount equal to Latent heat of the fluid at that temperature will be released.
The equation when there is only Latent Heat Transfer is
Q = m*Lamda
where lamda is Latent heat of the fluid
When both sensible and Latent Heat is involved (Condensing and then subcooling)
Q = m (C*dt + Lamda)
Now regarding your case, are you sure you want the outlet temperature be 56.08 C? I wonder why you need subcooling of 0.05C.
For guidance you should consult to "Process Heat Transfer by Kern" and Book By Ludwig.
I hope it helps.
Regards.
When your dealing with phase change, then Latent Heat comes into play. Since your condensing the Fluid so amount equal to Latent heat of the fluid at that temperature will be released.
The equation when there is only Latent Heat Transfer is
Q = m*Lamda
where lamda is Latent heat of the fluid
When both sensible and Latent Heat is involved (Condensing and then subcooling)
Q = m (C*dt + Lamda)
Now regarding your case, are you sure you want the outlet temperature be 56.08 C? I wonder why you need subcooling of 0.05C.
For guidance you should consult to "Process Heat Transfer by Kern" and Book By Ludwig.
I hope it helps.
Regards.
#3
Ben
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Posted 19 June 2006 - 09:26 PM
QUOTE (aliadnan @ Jun 19 2006, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ben
When your dealing with phase change, then Latent Heat comes into play. Since your condensing the Fluid so amount equal to Latent heat of the fluid at that temperature will be released.
The equation when there is only Latent Heat Transfer is
Q = m*Lamda
where lamda is Latent heat of the fluid
When both sensible and Latent Heat is involved (Condensing and then subcooling)
Q = m (C*dt + Lamda)
Now regarding your case, are you sure you want the outlet temperature be 56.08 C? I wonder why you need subcooling of 0.05C.
For guidance you should consult to "Process Heat Transfer by Kern" and Book By Ludwig.
I hope it helps.
Regards.
When your dealing with phase change, then Latent Heat comes into play. Since your condensing the Fluid so amount equal to Latent heat of the fluid at that temperature will be released.
The equation when there is only Latent Heat Transfer is
Q = m*Lamda
where lamda is Latent heat of the fluid
When both sensible and Latent Heat is involved (Condensing and then subcooling)
Q = m (C*dt + Lamda)
Now regarding your case, are you sure you want the outlet temperature be 56.08 C? I wonder why you need subcooling of 0.05C.
For guidance you should consult to "Process Heat Transfer by Kern" and Book By Ludwig.
I hope it helps.
Regards.
Oh, because everything was done in HYSYS. Actually the idea is to separate a binary mixture of acetone and isopropanol. My objective is to achieve a acetone purity of 0.999. Therefore when i did everything is hysys, 56.08 will give a vapour fraction of 0 while 56.09 wil give a vapour fraction of 0.03+++. Thanks for your help.
#4
ranjith kumar
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Posted 25 June 2006 - 04:52 PM
QUOTE (Ben @ Jun 19 2006, 06:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi,
Can someone help me on designing a condenser. My aim is to condense acetone vapour at 56.13C (Vapour fraction=1) to 56.08C (vapour fraction=0) by using water at 25C. The process fluid will flow through the shell side while water will flow in the tube side. I know that q =mCpT and so the outlet temperature of water can be found by Tout = Tcin + q/mCp. However, after calculating, the outlet temperature is the same as my inlet. If there something wrong with the calculation? Because it involved a phase change.
Can someone help me on designing a condenser. My aim is to condense acetone vapour at 56.13C (Vapour fraction=1) to 56.08C (vapour fraction=0) by using water at 25C. The process fluid will flow through the shell side while water will flow in the tube side. I know that q =mCpT and so the outlet temperature of water can be found by Tout = Tcin + q/mCp. However, after calculating, the outlet temperature is the same as my inlet. If there something wrong with the calculation? Because it involved a phase change.
you fool
dont u know the basics of chemical engineerins.in condensers we remove sensible heat and mainly latent heat.
#5
Ben
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Posted 26 June 2006 - 04:20 AM
Hi,
Can anyone tell me how to calculate the length of a heat exchanger? Thank you very much
Can anyone tell me how to calculate the length of a heat exchanger? Thank you very much
#6
aliadnan
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Posted 26 June 2006 - 08:50 AM
Ben
The answer of your question is very simple, go check out the books on Heat Transfer and Exchanger Design and you will get the answer. Well if you are more specifice in your question and provide the complete data of what kind of exchanger you want to design, what are the fluids your handling, there flowrates, temperatures, pressure etc etc. you will get more helpful replies.
Go in the library and consult the basic Heat Exchanger Design Books like
1) "Process Heat Transfer" by Kern
2) "Applied Process Design" Ludwig
I hope this helps and next time you come here with more data.
Regards,
Ali
The answer of your question is very simple, go check out the books on Heat Transfer and Exchanger Design and you will get the answer. Well if you are more specifice in your question and provide the complete data of what kind of exchanger you want to design, what are the fluids your handling, there flowrates, temperatures, pressure etc etc. you will get more helpful replies.
Go in the library and consult the basic Heat Exchanger Design Books like
1) "Process Heat Transfer" by Kern
2) "Applied Process Design" Ludwig
I hope this helps and next time you come here with more data.
Regards,
Ali
#7
Art Montemayor
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Posted 26 June 2006 - 04:20 PM
ranjith kumar:
I'm going to inject myself and my personal opinion in this thread because I believe an injustice has been committed.
It is not only unfair, un-engineering, un-professional, and illogical to call Ben a "fool", I also believe very strongly that it is totally out of place to say these type of immature remarks on a Forum such as this one that is expressly devoted to helping students - not insulting them. I am well-known by now for always being a strict enforcer and a disciplinarian when it comes to Chemical Engineering students. I do this because I believe more is expected from them than from others due to higher expectations and the many hurdles they have to overcome. I also am quick to criticize Chem. Engrs. when they demonstrate laziness and ill-preparation in their work. However, I can never - and will never - insult a Chemical Engineering student.
By nature, a student is basically ignorant of a lot of things --- that's why he/she are studying and are called "students"! It is the drive for self-improvement and a desire to learn and achieve more that sets a Chemical Engineering student apart from all the others. Some are slower, some are badly organized, some are lackadaisical, some are undisciplined, some are over-anxious, and some simply have a hard time understanding and identifying problems and their solutions. But they are all trying to improve. That drive for improvement is a big, big factor in future character and superior human qualities. I have been there and I can attest to the difference it makes in a person.
I have participated in and led some pretty important and large engineering projects and investments in my professional career and I have worked for many engineers as well as hired and led many other engineers. I also have fired a lot of engineers. Among those that I fired -and would have nothing to do with- were some people who were supposed to be among the brightest and the smartest in their class (& from some highly regarded universities). Nevertheless, the most successful and effective of the engineers that I worked for and directed were those engineers that others identified as the least "smart" or brilliant when it came to working numbers, calculating, and memorizing equations. These successful engineers may not have been blessed with superior brain cells, but they wound up being bosses and leaders because of their work ethic, their human qualities, their ability to make sound engineering judgments, and most of all because they were practical and knew when and where to ask a question. Those are the kind of engineers I personally prefer to associate myself with.
To me, Ben has proved he/she is anything but a fool. A fool would not have had the sense to come to this Forum for help and request aid in his need - not once, but TWICE. And Ali has responded accordingly each time. I applaud Ben for his candor in asking for help; I also applaud Ali for having the understanding and human quality of giving that help sought. (Good show, Ali! You've shown a lot of class.)
I'm going to inject myself and my personal opinion in this thread because I believe an injustice has been committed.
It is not only unfair, un-engineering, un-professional, and illogical to call Ben a "fool", I also believe very strongly that it is totally out of place to say these type of immature remarks on a Forum such as this one that is expressly devoted to helping students - not insulting them. I am well-known by now for always being a strict enforcer and a disciplinarian when it comes to Chemical Engineering students. I do this because I believe more is expected from them than from others due to higher expectations and the many hurdles they have to overcome. I also am quick to criticize Chem. Engrs. when they demonstrate laziness and ill-preparation in their work. However, I can never - and will never - insult a Chemical Engineering student.
By nature, a student is basically ignorant of a lot of things --- that's why he/she are studying and are called "students"! It is the drive for self-improvement and a desire to learn and achieve more that sets a Chemical Engineering student apart from all the others. Some are slower, some are badly organized, some are lackadaisical, some are undisciplined, some are over-anxious, and some simply have a hard time understanding and identifying problems and their solutions. But they are all trying to improve. That drive for improvement is a big, big factor in future character and superior human qualities. I have been there and I can attest to the difference it makes in a person.
I have participated in and led some pretty important and large engineering projects and investments in my professional career and I have worked for many engineers as well as hired and led many other engineers. I also have fired a lot of engineers. Among those that I fired -and would have nothing to do with- were some people who were supposed to be among the brightest and the smartest in their class (& from some highly regarded universities). Nevertheless, the most successful and effective of the engineers that I worked for and directed were those engineers that others identified as the least "smart" or brilliant when it came to working numbers, calculating, and memorizing equations. These successful engineers may not have been blessed with superior brain cells, but they wound up being bosses and leaders because of their work ethic, their human qualities, their ability to make sound engineering judgments, and most of all because they were practical and knew when and where to ask a question. Those are the kind of engineers I personally prefer to associate myself with.
To me, Ben has proved he/she is anything but a fool. A fool would not have had the sense to come to this Forum for help and request aid in his need - not once, but TWICE. And Ali has responded accordingly each time. I applaud Ben for his candor in asking for help; I also applaud Ali for having the understanding and human quality of giving that help sought. (Good show, Ali! You've shown a lot of class.)
#8
latexman
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Posted 26 June 2006 - 09:44 PM
Ben,
It's been a while since I sized a heat exchanger by hand, but here goes . . .
Personally, I prefer vertical, condensing-in-tube, downflow condensers, but that's not what you want.
First, you have to have an idea of what your pressure drop limitations are on the acetone side and the water side of the heat exchanger. I would suggest starting with a pressure drop limitation of 0.1 to 2 psi on the acetone side and 1 to 10 psi on the water side. This can change as you go along if needed.
Second, you have to set some minimum criteria on the approaches. An approach is the temperature difference at one end of the S&T exchanger (assuming one pass on each side). I've seen minimum approaches of 5 to 10 C suggested. You also may have an upper temperature limit on the water you can return to the plant's "Cooling Water Return Header". This depends on many factors. I've seen quite a few at 40 to 50 C.
Third, you have to have an idea of how long is too long. Chemical plants usually have a small to medium crane and a medium size truck or two to pick up and tote stuff back and forth to the shop. I suggest a maximum length of 20 feet. This can change as you go along too.
Use a "Typical Overall Heat Transfer Coefficient" to get an idea of how much heat transfer area you need. I would suggest U = 100 to 200 Btu/hr/ft^2/F for your application.
Now, you need to decide what size diameter and thickness of tubes you are going to start with. Is this a small exchanger, say < 1000 ft^2? Or a big exchanger, say > 10,000 ft^2. For a small exchanger, I suggest 5/8 or 3/4" OD tubes. For a large exchanger, I suggest 1-1/4 or 1-1/2" OD tubes. You can change this later as you are iterating. The thickness will come from your mechanical engineer who has to do the mechanical design for the MAWP and MAWT. If this isn't available, I'd suggest starting with 16 BWG tubes.
You need to look at a "tube count sheet" to see how many tubes can be fit into a certain size shell. I think Perry has some. With the flow rate of water in the tubes, I usually find the maximum number of tubes that will give a Reynolds number > 10,000. This will ensure turbulent flow without excessive pressure drop. Set up an inequality equation of Re > 10,000 with the number of tubes on the LHS and figure it out. Pick a shell diameter out of the tube count sheet that has this number or less of tubes.
Now, with your heat transfer area estimate and the number of tubes estimate you should be able to estimate a length. Does it make sense? Is it less than the max. length? At this point, I round the tube length up to the nearest 2 feet increment of length, line 10 ft.. 12 ft., 14 ft., etc.
Okay, you are now ready to begin the detailed calculations, I think. You have an idea of the tube size, tube thickness, number of tubes, and tube length. Now you have to calculate the individual heat transfer coefficients with the appropriate correlations and physical properties, assume a dirt factor (I suggest 0.001), combine these and calculate an actual U. Is it close to what you assumed for the "Typical Overall Heat Transfer Coefficient"? Hopefully so! Anyway, you have to calculate the actual pressure drop on the tube side and the shell side. Are they within your acceptable range? If the calculated U is less than 5% away from the assumed U, I call it good! If not, you have to change the heat exchanger to get it closer. Use the calculated pressure drops to assist in your decisions. If you can accept more pressure drop, you can make the exchanger longer, but not more than 20 feet.
I hope I have given you enough information to get you started without confusing you. If you need to change some of the limits I suggested above, go ahead, you are the Engineer!
It's been a while since I sized a heat exchanger by hand, but here goes . . .
Personally, I prefer vertical, condensing-in-tube, downflow condensers, but that's not what you want.
First, you have to have an idea of what your pressure drop limitations are on the acetone side and the water side of the heat exchanger. I would suggest starting with a pressure drop limitation of 0.1 to 2 psi on the acetone side and 1 to 10 psi on the water side. This can change as you go along if needed.
Second, you have to set some minimum criteria on the approaches. An approach is the temperature difference at one end of the S&T exchanger (assuming one pass on each side). I've seen minimum approaches of 5 to 10 C suggested. You also may have an upper temperature limit on the water you can return to the plant's "Cooling Water Return Header". This depends on many factors. I've seen quite a few at 40 to 50 C.
Third, you have to have an idea of how long is too long. Chemical plants usually have a small to medium crane and a medium size truck or two to pick up and tote stuff back and forth to the shop. I suggest a maximum length of 20 feet. This can change as you go along too.
Use a "Typical Overall Heat Transfer Coefficient" to get an idea of how much heat transfer area you need. I would suggest U = 100 to 200 Btu/hr/ft^2/F for your application.
Now, you need to decide what size diameter and thickness of tubes you are going to start with. Is this a small exchanger, say < 1000 ft^2? Or a big exchanger, say > 10,000 ft^2. For a small exchanger, I suggest 5/8 or 3/4" OD tubes. For a large exchanger, I suggest 1-1/4 or 1-1/2" OD tubes. You can change this later as you are iterating. The thickness will come from your mechanical engineer who has to do the mechanical design for the MAWP and MAWT. If this isn't available, I'd suggest starting with 16 BWG tubes.
You need to look at a "tube count sheet" to see how many tubes can be fit into a certain size shell. I think Perry has some. With the flow rate of water in the tubes, I usually find the maximum number of tubes that will give a Reynolds number > 10,000. This will ensure turbulent flow without excessive pressure drop. Set up an inequality equation of Re > 10,000 with the number of tubes on the LHS and figure it out. Pick a shell diameter out of the tube count sheet that has this number or less of tubes.
Now, with your heat transfer area estimate and the number of tubes estimate you should be able to estimate a length. Does it make sense? Is it less than the max. length? At this point, I round the tube length up to the nearest 2 feet increment of length, line 10 ft.. 12 ft., 14 ft., etc.
Okay, you are now ready to begin the detailed calculations, I think. You have an idea of the tube size, tube thickness, number of tubes, and tube length. Now you have to calculate the individual heat transfer coefficients with the appropriate correlations and physical properties, assume a dirt factor (I suggest 0.001), combine these and calculate an actual U. Is it close to what you assumed for the "Typical Overall Heat Transfer Coefficient"? Hopefully so! Anyway, you have to calculate the actual pressure drop on the tube side and the shell side. Are they within your acceptable range? If the calculated U is less than 5% away from the assumed U, I call it good! If not, you have to change the heat exchanger to get it closer. Use the calculated pressure drops to assist in your decisions. If you can accept more pressure drop, you can make the exchanger longer, but not more than 20 feet.
I hope I have given you enough information to get you started without confusing you. If you need to change some of the limits I suggested above, go ahead, you are the Engineer!
#9
Ben
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Posted 27 June 2006 - 03:13 AM
Thank for all your help. I really appreaciate it. Seems that i am heading towards the right direction. Thanks once again. 
#10
Ben
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Posted 27 June 2006 - 08:57 AM
Ok, i came out with a method and do you think that i am on the right track? Here it goes:
From HYSYS simulation, i found that the process will require ~6658.5kW to be transferred, so i did an initial approximation before arriving at a conclusion:
A standard tube dimension of 0.02m OD and 0.016ID is used. With a tube pitch, triangular pitch and L/Ds of 0.025m, 0.866 and 5 respectively, and with an initial estimation of a heat transfer area (say 100m2), i am able to determine the shell diameter as well as the number of tubes (through a formula in chemical process design and integration by robin smith). I went on to calculate the condensing film coefficient, tube and shell side coefficient as well as assuming a tube and shell fouling coefficient of 3000 and 5000 respectively, which lead to an overall heat transfer coefficient of 612W/m2.s. Together with my corrected LMTD of 25.68C, i achieved a duty of 3144kW. This was far from what is expected(i.e. 6658.5kW), therefore through the help of excel spreadsheet, a trial and error analysis was performed in achieving 6658.5kW by adjusting the heat transfer area. With the final heat transfer area (393.48m2), the shell diameter was found to be 0.952m with 1316 tubes, and an overall heat transfer coefficient of 659.09.
Having more parameters known, i am able to determine the velocity of both shell and tube side, together with the pressure drops. However, considering that i did not determine an allowable pressure drop initially, i am still able to carry on my calculations without having it affecting my result?
Hopefully i am on the right track. Thanks alot.
From HYSYS simulation, i found that the process will require ~6658.5kW to be transferred, so i did an initial approximation before arriving at a conclusion:
A standard tube dimension of 0.02m OD and 0.016ID is used. With a tube pitch, triangular pitch and L/Ds of 0.025m, 0.866 and 5 respectively, and with an initial estimation of a heat transfer area (say 100m2), i am able to determine the shell diameter as well as the number of tubes (through a formula in chemical process design and integration by robin smith). I went on to calculate the condensing film coefficient, tube and shell side coefficient as well as assuming a tube and shell fouling coefficient of 3000 and 5000 respectively, which lead to an overall heat transfer coefficient of 612W/m2.s. Together with my corrected LMTD of 25.68C, i achieved a duty of 3144kW. This was far from what is expected(i.e. 6658.5kW), therefore through the help of excel spreadsheet, a trial and error analysis was performed in achieving 6658.5kW by adjusting the heat transfer area. With the final heat transfer area (393.48m2), the shell diameter was found to be 0.952m with 1316 tubes, and an overall heat transfer coefficient of 659.09.
Having more parameters known, i am able to determine the velocity of both shell and tube side, together with the pressure drops. However, considering that i did not determine an allowable pressure drop initially, i am still able to carry on my calculations without having it affecting my result?
Hopefully i am on the right track. Thanks alot.
#11
hardiskuae
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Posted 06 July 2006 - 03:13 PM
QUOTE (Ben @ Jun 19 2006, 04:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi,
Can someone help me on designing a condenser. My aim is to condense acetone vapour at 56.13C (Vapour fraction=1) to 56.08C (vapour fraction=0) by using water at 25C. The process fluid will flow through the shell side while water will flow in the tube side. I know that q =mCpT and so the outlet temperature of water can be found by Tout = Tcin + q/mCp. However, after calculating, the outlet temperature is the same as my inlet. If there something wrong with the calculation? Because it involved a phase change.
Can someone help me on designing a condenser. My aim is to condense acetone vapour at 56.13C (Vapour fraction=1) to 56.08C (vapour fraction=0) by using water at 25C. The process fluid will flow through the shell side while water will flow in the tube side. I know that q =mCpT and so the outlet temperature of water can be found by Tout = Tcin + q/mCp. However, after calculating, the outlet temperature is the same as my inlet. If there something wrong with the calculation? Because it involved a phase change.
I faced the same problem when I was in the college. Try to find the following book in the library (Chemical Engineering Volume 6 : Chemical Engineering Design (Coulson and Richardson's Chemical Engineering Series)).
You will find step by step example for designing heatexchanger and condenser. The book is very simple and guided with simple example for designing. If you need any further help, just email me back...
Good Luck...
#12
humoud khadija
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Posted 08 March 2009 - 02:56 PM
Please l need some help on designing a condenser. My aim is to get more ethanol in the outlet stream and design the mechanical part of it i.e. the physical design of the condenser. The following are some of the details.
Inlet components
Butane
Methane
Hydrogen
Methanol
Ethane
Propane
pentane
water
Inlet
Flow rate= 4311.142kg/h
Volumetric flow rate =13951739.950L/h
Temperature=400 ºC
Pressure=1.01bar
Outlet1
Flow rate=832.794kg/h
Volumetric flow rate=77024.347L/h
Temperature=60.31 ºC
Pressure=48bar
OUTLET 2
Flow rate =3478.348kg/h
Volumetric flow rate=11174.391L/h
Temperature=60.31 ºC
Pressure=48bar
thanks,
khadija
Inlet components
Butane
Methane
Hydrogen
Methanol
Ethane
Propane
pentane
water
Inlet
Flow rate= 4311.142kg/h
Volumetric flow rate =13951739.950L/h
Temperature=400 ºC
Pressure=1.01bar
Outlet1
Flow rate=832.794kg/h
Volumetric flow rate=77024.347L/h
Temperature=60.31 ºC
Pressure=48bar
OUTLET 2
Flow rate =3478.348kg/h
Volumetric flow rate=11174.391L/h
Temperature=60.31 ºC
Pressure=48bar
thanks,
khadija
#13
Art Montemayor
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Posted 08 March 2009 - 04:26 PM
khadija:
This thread is almost 3 years old. Please let it be a good reference and guide for designing a condenser.
If you have a need to design a total condenser, then simply follow the excellent, detailed instructions and guidelines given by Latexman. That is the way you design a condenser.
If you are looking for some one to design it for you, you are out of luck. I will delete your post on this old thread after a couple of days since your post only tries to hijack the thread for your purposes and doesn't add any value to it.
This thread is almost 3 years old. Please let it be a good reference and guide for designing a condenser.
If you have a need to design a total condenser, then simply follow the excellent, detailed instructions and guidelines given by Latexman. That is the way you design a condenser.
If you are looking for some one to design it for you, you are out of luck. I will delete your post on this old thread after a couple of days since your post only tries to hijack the thread for your purposes and doesn't add any value to it.
#14
humoud khadija
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Posted 10 March 2009 - 01:23 AM
QUOTE (Art Montemayor @ Mar 8 2009, 05:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
khadija:
This thread is almost 3 years old. Please let it be a good reference and guide for designing a condenser.
If you have a need to design a total condenser, then simply follow the excellent, detailed instructions and guidelines given by Latexman. That is the way you design a condenser.
If you are looking for some one to design it for you, you are out of luck. I will delete your post on this old thread after a couple of days since your post only tries to hijack the thread for your purposes and doesn't add any value to it.
This thread is almost 3 years old. Please let it be a good reference and guide for designing a condenser.
If you have a need to design a total condenser, then simply follow the excellent, detailed instructions and guidelines given by Latexman. That is the way you design a condenser.
If you are looking for some one to design it for you, you are out of luck. I will delete your post on this old thread after a couple of days since your post only tries to hijack the thread for your purposes and doesn't add any value to it.
Hi
thank you very much.My aim was not to ask someone to design a condenser for me; but to guide me.My problem is how can I handle a lot of components entering in my inlet stream and some guidelines on how to choose materials for construction.I actually did understood what Latexman said but still l have no idea on how I should handle a lot of inlet components.since he didn't say anything about that.
thanks you and so sorry.
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