I am wondering if a you're a chemical engineer at a large refiney and you're bi-polar on medication for mood swings and violence, can management know without you losing your job? Can or should any chemical engineer be in treatment for psychiatric disorders, on medication be in charge of the plants computers?
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Plant Safey Vs. Medical Privacy
Started by Guest_Lois Lane_*, Sep 08 2003 01:19 AM
2 replies to this topic
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#1
Guest_Lois Lane_*
Posted 08 September 2003 - 01:19 AM
#2
Posted 08 September 2003 - 11:17 AM
Lois,
The clinical definition of "Bi-polar" is:
Manic depression involves wide mood alterations, with periods of both depression and mania. A person experiencing depression or mania may have intense mood swings and consequent changes in thinking and behavior.
Your query is either hypothetical or considers some abnormal circumstances. For example, a refinery (or any process plant) would not normally have a need, or interest, in placing a Chem E "in charge" of their computers. But I think I understand what you mean to emphasize. My judgement and my comments are as follows:
1) A processing facility is vulnerable to bad and incompetant decisions and actions that can cause serious (and many times, fatal) damage to human beings in the immediate and surrounding areas. I need only cite one example - Bhopal, India. Agreeably, an engineer under medication is not incompetant due to the medication; however, what is the assurance to his colleagues that he will maintain that medication? Safety is the issue here, not fairness, job opportunity, political correctness, "feelings", "equality", etc. A professional engineer is subject to the absolute control and scrutiny by assigned and recognized state boards in the USA. The reason for this is the issue of safety for the public's good. If a plant manager assigns a known individual who is under constant medication to make critical judgements on the safety and welfare of his personnel, he is violating the rights of all his personnel, in my opinion. All people have a right to defend and protect their lives and safety. My first boss and mentor said it well: "You don't pay a person a salary in order to have him/her risk their lives. There is no price on a human life".
2) A professional engineer has an ethical reason to disqualify himself/herself from such a critical position. If he/she does not declare their inability to ensure the safety of those around him/her 100% of the time, then they are in the wrong place and in the wrong position. There are engineering assignments that do not carry that level of critical qualifications. We may have the brains and the aptitude, but not all of us have the total qualifications (physical, mental, emotional, etc.) to be astronauts.
3) I don't know why you put the loss of a job as a possibility should plant management discover you have manic depression. As I have stated, there are numerous engineering assignments and posts within the realm of a processing plant where such handicapped engineers can contribute. I would definitely not place such a person as a principal operator of a nuclear reactor...! And I believe that when I adamantly make that statement, everyone who would be at risk would back up such a decision. However, the process design and other front-end engineering could easily be done, and even supervised, by a manic depressive person and I couldn't care less as long as the design works and passes all the PSM and Hazop criteria.
In the above statements I have considered the public safety as the main, underlying criteria for considering the health and well-being of an individual encharged with operations that can threaten the same. There are no economic or political reasons to consider ahead of public safety, in my opinion. As an engineer you have to make hard decisions every day based on basic data input given you. The potential mental state of a person is one of the basic data that you are given or obtain. You must, as a professional engineer, take into consideration the potential harm that could befall the public and that person before allowing that same person to assume control. You can do the best only with the basic data that you have in hand. That is why it is critical for you to know the physical, mental, and emotional conditions of your personnel at all times. The decision may seem unjust, but it should be the best decision based on the facts.
Would you hire a re-habilitated child molester as a nanny for your children? The molester needs a job (& has a right to one) just like anyone else. The upside would be that you would be helping someone carry on their life. The downside could be the loss of your children. Which would be your decision?
My point is that there are a lot of jobs where re-habilitated child molesters can work and earn a living - all of them are as far away from children as possible. As engineers we are inherently put in supervisory and lead positions in which we have to make correct, fair, and safe decisions. Those decisions also include revealing to our supervisors any liabilities and shortcommings that we may have. That is what makes us "professionals".
This is a serious and daily issue of professional engineers and, unfortunately, it often is not even discussed in university training.
Art Montemayor
The clinical definition of "Bi-polar" is:
Manic depression involves wide mood alterations, with periods of both depression and mania. A person experiencing depression or mania may have intense mood swings and consequent changes in thinking and behavior.
Your query is either hypothetical or considers some abnormal circumstances. For example, a refinery (or any process plant) would not normally have a need, or interest, in placing a Chem E "in charge" of their computers. But I think I understand what you mean to emphasize. My judgement and my comments are as follows:
1) A processing facility is vulnerable to bad and incompetant decisions and actions that can cause serious (and many times, fatal) damage to human beings in the immediate and surrounding areas. I need only cite one example - Bhopal, India. Agreeably, an engineer under medication is not incompetant due to the medication; however, what is the assurance to his colleagues that he will maintain that medication? Safety is the issue here, not fairness, job opportunity, political correctness, "feelings", "equality", etc. A professional engineer is subject to the absolute control and scrutiny by assigned and recognized state boards in the USA. The reason for this is the issue of safety for the public's good. If a plant manager assigns a known individual who is under constant medication to make critical judgements on the safety and welfare of his personnel, he is violating the rights of all his personnel, in my opinion. All people have a right to defend and protect their lives and safety. My first boss and mentor said it well: "You don't pay a person a salary in order to have him/her risk their lives. There is no price on a human life".
2) A professional engineer has an ethical reason to disqualify himself/herself from such a critical position. If he/she does not declare their inability to ensure the safety of those around him/her 100% of the time, then they are in the wrong place and in the wrong position. There are engineering assignments that do not carry that level of critical qualifications. We may have the brains and the aptitude, but not all of us have the total qualifications (physical, mental, emotional, etc.) to be astronauts.
3) I don't know why you put the loss of a job as a possibility should plant management discover you have manic depression. As I have stated, there are numerous engineering assignments and posts within the realm of a processing plant where such handicapped engineers can contribute. I would definitely not place such a person as a principal operator of a nuclear reactor...! And I believe that when I adamantly make that statement, everyone who would be at risk would back up such a decision. However, the process design and other front-end engineering could easily be done, and even supervised, by a manic depressive person and I couldn't care less as long as the design works and passes all the PSM and Hazop criteria.
In the above statements I have considered the public safety as the main, underlying criteria for considering the health and well-being of an individual encharged with operations that can threaten the same. There are no economic or political reasons to consider ahead of public safety, in my opinion. As an engineer you have to make hard decisions every day based on basic data input given you. The potential mental state of a person is one of the basic data that you are given or obtain. You must, as a professional engineer, take into consideration the potential harm that could befall the public and that person before allowing that same person to assume control. You can do the best only with the basic data that you have in hand. That is why it is critical for you to know the physical, mental, and emotional conditions of your personnel at all times. The decision may seem unjust, but it should be the best decision based on the facts.
Would you hire a re-habilitated child molester as a nanny for your children? The molester needs a job (& has a right to one) just like anyone else. The upside would be that you would be helping someone carry on their life. The downside could be the loss of your children. Which would be your decision?
My point is that there are a lot of jobs where re-habilitated child molesters can work and earn a living - all of them are as far away from children as possible. As engineers we are inherently put in supervisory and lead positions in which we have to make correct, fair, and safe decisions. Those decisions also include revealing to our supervisors any liabilities and shortcommings that we may have. That is what makes us "professionals".
This is a serious and daily issue of professional engineers and, unfortunately, it often is not even discussed in university training.
Art Montemayor
#3
Guest_Guest_*
Posted 08 September 2003 - 04:14 PM
It is s tricky subject, and Art has covered it well. As to losing the job, that depends on the company attitude and the type of job (I'd have thought), and if the condition makes the engineer less competent than an engineer without the condition.
Human error (or poor judgement) is something that cannot in itself be eliminated, you can only seek to prevent errors having a serious consequence (e.g. better safety systems/design, training can only achieve so much), and this applies to everyone. Sometimes people just aren't suitable for a particular job. Take the case of a physical dysability, e.g. paralysis from the neck down. An (unfortunate) individual in this position isn't likely to compete in a triathalon, but nevertheless will possess skills and abilities making them suitable for other roles. I would extend that principle to mental illness in the same way.
Human error (or poor judgement) is something that cannot in itself be eliminated, you can only seek to prevent errors having a serious consequence (e.g. better safety systems/design, training can only achieve so much), and this applies to everyone. Sometimes people just aren't suitable for a particular job. Take the case of a physical dysability, e.g. paralysis from the neck down. An (unfortunate) individual in this position isn't likely to compete in a triathalon, but nevertheless will possess skills and abilities making them suitable for other roles. I would extend that principle to mental illness in the same way.
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