5 replies to this topic

[dianzz]

guys i want to know is cad program really matter for chemical engineer's ?

second is,
i want to get self training for a cad program suite.
if i have to choose, which one is better : Cadworks or Autodesk Plant Design suite?
and which one is commonly used in industry and plant ?

i need i brief review, maybe someone in here have experience with this software?
so i can decided which one i should learn first
thank you

Edited by dianzz, 25 August 2012 - 01:27 AM.

[Art Montemayor]

dianzz:

I have led projects in USA, Latin America, and Europe - both as a young project engineer, process design engineer, and project manager. I learned drafting in university (1956), with T-square, board, paper and pencil and have employed many designers since then - before and after the innovation of "CAD". I have never employed my skills to generate project drawings. Others, under me, always carry out that function. They are "designers"; I am an engineer. That is the way it is today in organized engineering firms and companies that employ engineers and designers - at least in the USA. I communicate with my designers by generating hand sketches and Excel drawings. Today - at least in the USA, Latin America, & Europe - I don't believe an engineer is required to have any knowledge or skills in developing CAD drawings. Technicians do that.

However, a general knowldge of what can be done with CAD and what can't be done is valuable and should be of interest to any engineer involved in projects. If you already have made up your mind to spend money and effort in acquiring CAD skills, fine. I doubt that you will ever be called to employ those skills (unless you are willing to accept the pay scale of a designer - which is lower than that of an engineer). There is nothing wrong with knowing CAD and doing that for a career. However, you can't expect a medical doctor who operates on patients in a hospital to also drive the ambulance that transports the same patient from an accident to the hospital. Both are vital and are needed; both play an important role. However, one dedicates his career to the final responsibility of the total outcome - and is compensated for that.

[breizh]

Hi ,
Being in Asia for more than 12 years now , I can tell you that all the process engineers I've being working with ( Indonesia,Thailand,China) were skilled using Autocad to issue PIDs or PFDs . For small companies it is really important to have multi skilled people .


Breizh

Edited by breizh, 26 August 2012 - 12:26 AM.

[Ajay S. Satpute]

Hi,

I had learnt autocad for my own interest from my designer while working as process engineer. This gives me a better idea on how much designer hours shall be needed for a particular dwg.

Nevertheless, I never did the draughting so far in autocad. Also, this won't be accepted by your employer as engineer hrs are costlier than that of designers.

Hope this helps.

Regards.

Ajay

[Dacs]

Since I'm a the younger of the members posting in this thread, I'd like to give my point of view with respect to CAD and automation when it comes to process engineering and the recent trends that are happening as we speak.

I worked with American, Korean and Saudi Arabian firms in my relatively short experience and while they have different approaches in doing the task at hand, I observe these aspects which they all have in common:

1. Process Engineers are the ones who make the shots in deciding what information is to be present in a deliverable (say P&ID). They mostly communicate their decision and judgment by giving mark-ups of existing drawing or at times a hand drawn drawing from scratch.
2. The actual production of CAD deliverable is being done by other people (normally called technician or drafters). They're the ones responsible in ensuring that the drawing meets the drawing specifications (such at the usage of proper lineweight/linestyle for process/utility lines or instrument signals for instance) but they NEVER decide on the actual information inside the drawing itself (such as the presence of vent/drain).

I had the experience working as both. But I never worked as both at the same time. It's either I was the drafter or the process engineer. Nowadays, I do Process Engineering since this is really who I am but at times I feel that the overall workflow is faster if I initially draft the P&ID since (well... this is hugely my personal preference ONLY) I work faster doing CAD work than doing it by hand. It's important to keep in mind however that Process Engineers doing CAD work is generally frowned upon because you're basically doing the work of somebody else.

HOWEVER (emphasis on capital letters), there are software suites available (such as Autodesk Plant Design and SmartPlant P&ID) which is on a totally different league from the "traditional" CAD software (such as AutoCAD). Those suites basically streamlines the workflow from producing the P&ID down to generation of Line/Instrument List, even having the option of linking information from these suites to INtools (instrumentation database software). They are called "smart" P&ID since they are designed to hold information much much more than the lines and sketches that are presently in the "traditional" CAD drawing.

I used SPPID before and I have to say that it really makes the work a lot easier. You don't need to allot manhours in producing the line list (for instance) since it can be easily done within SPPID itself.

If you have the chance to learn these suites, then it's a plus in your book, although I have to emphasize that while learning these software won't make you a better Process Engineer, it will hugely prepare you on the changing trend in how engineering work is being executed lately.

Hope this helps

Edited by Dacs, 26 August 2012 - 10:36 PM.

[kkala]

Having worked in Greek companies of 30-300 working people, I have seen that drafting ability using PC is not prerequisite for a Chemical Engineer, but it is quite useful, as noted in previous posts. Some companies encouraged learning of autocad in seminars or in practice. You do not replace the experienced draftsman, but you can conveniently make the rather small changes on the drawings after a revision. Think also of your own presentations, when you work out of normal working hours.
Above concerns simple 2D (two dimension) drawings, like flow sheets and simple PIDs, discussed in http://www.cheresources.com/invision/topic/10120-draw-pids-in-excel. 3D drawings are made by draftsmen having the specific expertize, whose man hour rate can be same as the engineer's (I remember a case here).
Over here Autocad software is much more widely used than Micrograph's, probably due to marketing. I have not met someone using Micrograph Designer, for example. Familiarization with basic software plays a role.
On the other hand googling Cadworx versus Autocad Plant Design Suite reveals interesting information, e.g. http://65.57.255.42/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=43897. It seems that Cadworx is the old mature software, while Autocad Plant Design Suite represents the new entry (but as an add-in to autocad). I do not have experience in any of them, they may not be used in Greece yet, but they seem interesting to Chemical Engineer. Not so because of their 3D capabilities (isometrics, etc) that may not be used (by Chemical Engineers), but because of their assumed capability to link presented pieces of equipment with their data sheets (having started with "Proceed", seen in 1992) and "make" line lists easy. This can save labour time.
I would chose only one application (Cadworx or Autocad Plant Design Suite) to follow in a seminar, after thinking of which presents the useful options more clearly and maturely along with which is easier to learn. After all, you will be able to use the other software in a short time, if familiar with basic concepts (more or less common). Further search on the Web can be also useful.

Edited by kkala, 27 August 2012 - 01:20 AM.